Fox
Newborn Pup
Mew...I mean...WOOF!!
Posts: 13
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Post by Fox on Jun 25, 2009 13:34:28 GMT -5
Or is it? I'm getting really, really annoyed with this bloody animal. I haven't got the patience to be cleaning up after him every single f*ing time. I'll give you an example. today, I called him to have a small bowl of chicken scraps and he came creeping up like he'd done something wrong. That pissed me off in the first place. He hadn't done anything wrong and my voice hadn't said anything of the sort. He crawled over to the bowl sniffed it, wet himself and skittered out. I grabbed him by the collar, hit him (yes, I'll hit him) and then kicked him out of the flat.
It getting to the point that he'll pee just to take the piss and no dog does that to me. He's actually just annoying in the first place and he's not really mine. I've been stuck with him for about 7 months more than I wanted him. If he was my dog, I would have slapped him and starved him for a day, but since he's not mine. I can't do that.
I've honestly had enough of this. The thing is, at my place, he had a high level of discipline and at his house he had no discipline (he lives with old people) and they just let him do whatever he wants. For example, if they take him out for a walk they say: He didn't want to go far, he kept sniffing... BULLS***! He doesn't do it with me, just use the collar, what has he got a f*ing collar for? Not to look bloody pretty to discipline him. Yank! There you f*ing go! He doesn't want to go far... SCREW HOW FAR THE DOG WANTS TO GO! HE'LL GO AS FAR AS YOU MAKE HIM!! And with me its: Right, you're on a combo choke chain, you'll walk. And he does that just fine...usually. I insist on him either out front or by my heel. Woe betide him if he does anything else or messes around on the lead.
But back to the submissive/rebellious peeing. I don't take kindly to anything like that. Rebel against me, I'll fight you, be timid towards me, I'll treat you with contempt. Goes for humans and animals. That's why i get along better with breeds like the Staffie and the Pitbull. They've got confidence. Anyway, this bloody dog is peeing all over the house and it's irritating me, because my mum shouts at me because of it.
Can I stop this behavior at all? And is it submissive or is it rebellious. Keep in mind that he had been walked at least 20 minuted before and he had gone to the loo.
I know that moods effects dogs but I've walked a Staffie in a furious mood and it was fine. Obeyed my commands instantly, behaved well off lead and didn't mess around at all and was still bouncy and friendly. But with this little twit, he starts going all stupid and spazzy. I'm not going to have it. Any ideas?
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Post by DogGoneGood on Jun 25, 2009 19:41:06 GMT -5
Okay, I need to take a deep breath so as to not fly off the handle on you. First of all, you should NEVER hit a dog. EVER. What does it accomplish? Dogs don't even treat EACHOTHER this way. They give warnings and talk through body language before it ever exemplifies to a fight. So you're wondering why this dog is cowering around you and peeing on your floor? Could it possibly be because he's AFRAID of you? Let me say this as clearly as I possibly can: Dogs are NOT robots. No matter what method you use or how many hours you clock in training a dog you can never, and should never expect a dog to listen to you 100% and obey every single command given. They are living beings with their own thoughts, feelings and agendas. There are countless methods out there for a reason; because every dog is an individual. Harsher methods may work with a large terrier breed that wouldn't work for a softer herding breed. I do not condone ANY method that involves HURTING a dog (such as HITTING it). Yes, I DO use choke chains, prong collars, and e-collars when called for. I do NOT use treats in training, and I do NOT use clickers or gentle leaders. I'm telling you this because you come across to me as an "old school" trainer who brushes off anything anyone's going to say if they're a purely positive trainer. That being said, I DO see a need for a soft hand, kind words, and treats when necessary. I believe every dog needs to be treated with respect in order to gain respect from that dog in turn. You should never push a dog to do something it is scared to do. You push a dog and you will BREAK that dog, screwing over any chance you ever had to teach the dog what you expected him to learn. For example; I have a dog who wouldn't go through the agility tunnel because he was scared to. It took me MONTHS of coaxing him through, and now he runs through like a whiz. If I'd beat and shoved him in screaming at him and having the mentality that "he does it because I SAY he does it and I don't put up with no BS from dogs!" it would have broken ANY chance I had at teaching him to go through it with CONFIDENCE. It's extremely contradictory for you to ask about submissive urination and then explain how you beat the dog for being terrified of you. Do some research, spend some time with the dog (regardless of whether or not it's yours I don't give a damn), and teach it to TRUST you and he'll stop peeing on your floor and cowering at the sight of you. If you give ANY "advice" to ANY member on this forum that involves HURTING a dog I will have you kicked off here quicker than you can blink. I do NOT tolerate animal abuse in the least, so you can either browse around and LEARN something or leave. That's entirely up to you. Either way, I think you have a LOT of education to do before you can consider yourself a professional dog trainer. P.S. The choke chain in your signature is backwards Remember: "P For Perfect" is how the choke chain is fitted on a dog
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Fox
Newborn Pup
Mew...I mean...WOOF!!
Posts: 13
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Post by Fox on Jun 26, 2009 7:46:31 GMT -5
I wont disregard what your saying and I understand perfectly but say for example I've told him to stay somewhere I'll give him the command "stay" and then he'll creep off and when I say (in a firm voice, not shouting (i rarely do that, such a waste of energy), "Get back here." he'll come back...and pee, blatantly in front of me. I count that as rebellious.
Afraid of me? Fine, possibly, doesn't help that he had a very screwed up life when he was a puppy (I haven't had him from a puppy. Only from 9 years old). And hold on...E-collars...please don't say e-stands for electric...I mean, what on EARTH would you use one of those for? One the other hand I may have got the wrong end of the stick (I usually do)
The soft hand does work better, I mean that the agility track and whilst training, I am actually nice to him. He does get treats (those he doesn't stick his nose up at. F*ing ponce. That irritates me as well, but I am thinking he thinks that he has to work for his treat and if he doesn't work, he thinks he doesn't deserve it, so he eats it).
And who said I was a professional. This is the only dog I've trained that had needed to be hit. I've gone through Chihuahua's, peeks, staffs, Presa Canarios, G.Danes and all have done brilliantly. Didn't need to hit them once. I didn't even think about it. I never needed to.
I mean this lad I have now, the hitting is rare. I've done it twice. Once when he lunged for another dog and once yesterday and that was it. I avoid it when I have to but any type of discipline in any house even if it is a quick "No!" will have him urinating on the floor. Outside, not such a problem. But a took him to a friends house and I was reclining (quite happily) on the sofa, laughing about certain things and I called the dog over. He crept over, wet himself and left. I was furious. So furious I couldn't do anything. I just gawped. That was...hmm. four months ago. It just gone on from there.
I've heard dogs sense energy...if that's true, this dog is screwed in the brain. Really screwed, either that or he sensed an underlying anger which wasn't even present at the time...so as I said messed up in the head. Plus there isn't such a thing as comforting a dog is there? It just unbalances them and turns into praise so they do it again.
Thing is, Id kick him out in the garden...if I had one. But i live in a flat. Dude, its like a massive drop to the "garden" and I would never, NEVER do that. Now thats just nasty.
But the thing is, he obeys me. He seriously does most of the time. If he didn't why would he have won all the awards he has. I've been showing him at agility and conformation for just over a year, he's won around 8-9 rosettes and 2 certificates and countless other prizes. It just puzzles me.
And the er, choke chain in my sig, oh those aren't mine. Just found the photo, lol. But thanks for that. ;D
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Post by DogGoneGood on Jun 26, 2009 11:17:16 GMT -5
First of all Fox, thanks for hearing me out. What breed of dog is he? If the dog had a bad past, you need to consider this more. I'm not saying coddle and pet him when he's scared, but be understanding. You're right that coddling him will reinforce the behavior, but yelling at him and hitting him is also only going to make it worse. I would first get this dog into the vet to rule out anything medical. It's a slim chance, but it is there that he has a urinary tract problem, or something else. If you don't believe it could be medical, ask Nancy here She first came here with the problem of her dog pooping in the house. All it took was a trip to the vet and a diet change and he doesn't do it anymore If it's only an issue in the house and not outdoors, he could be associating being called indoors with something bad. Maybe when he was a puppy his owners called him to them to give him trouble? Who knows? It could be anything! Get down on his level and use a very calm, coaxing voice. Use his name and tell him to come to you. If he doesn't don't go storming after him, just keep coaxing him. Maybe use a bit of food. It's going to take TIME and PATIENCE and a lot of work on your part to gain his trust back. Most importantly DON'T hit him. The ONLY time I could possibly condone hitting a dog is if it's your ONLY option to stop the dog from hurting yourself or someone else. That's the ONLY time I will make an acception for it. I made that comment about being a professional dog trainer because your signature says "Yes, I am a dog trainer, and yes, my methods are are harsher than the average, but they work." Therefore I assumed you were training professionally, as the average owner is not considered a "trainer". If this is your ultimate goal, I stand by that you need to do some more research. www.leerburg.com is a WONDERFUL trainer and the website is packed FULL of information for free. He uses a balanced method (as I do) that includes using training collars, pack mentality and structure, as well as treats and motivation. I highly suggest checking it out and reading his articles, as they're very good. There's only a few points here and there that I've found I disagree with, and even then it's nothing major. I heard once if you put two trainers in a room together and then add in a third trainer the only thing the first two will ever agree on is that the third one is wrong Every trainer has a different method, and that's not a bad thing. The bad thing comes when a trainer has a method that HURTS the animal or when a trainer won't budge in the slightest regarding a dog he's working with where his methods have failed. Anyway, back to the submissive peeing (you'll find I sometimes jump all over the map before I get to my final conclusion, bear with me). Dogs rarely act "rebelious" and even then I'm not sure if that's the correct term to use for it. Even then, dogs NEVER pee out of rebelion. Especially if the peeing is coupled with submissive behavior (cowever, showing belly, tail tucked between legs, ears back etc.). This dog is CLEARLY showing submissive urination. Harsh methods will NOT fix this problem, so don't even try it. Kind words, soft hands, and a lot of coaxing, PATIENCE and time will fix this problem. When you work with him on obedience or even take him for a walk, don't be overly correction heavy. He sounds like a dog who is naturally soft. Some soft dogs all it takes is a firm "NO" and they hit the ground peeing. It's just who they are and you have to figure out a way to work with the dog. Give him a chance when he makes a mistake. Ed Frawley goes into this in great detail in one of his articles on Leerburg (I believe it's the one on corrections). There should be a 1 second to 1 1/2 second delay between when a dog does not comply and you give him a "Nooo" to when a correction is given. This time frame gives the dog a chance to correct his wrong to "beat" the correction. This is a GOOD thing and shows learning and progress. As for e-collars; the politically correct term for them IS "e-collar" or "remote trainer". I use e-collar because it's short and effective. I've only used one on ONE dog so far, and he's my own dog, and it's my last resort tool. I don't understand why you're kicking at them if you're obviously supporting them in your signature You can learn more about the e-collar and my progress in using one on my dog Blog on: Teaching the Leash Dependent Dog to be Off Leash: Introduction to E-Collar TrainingI hope this helps, and the best of luck. Don't hesitate to ask any questions, read the articles already posted (you can find them all under the Forum Index), and give updates on how the dog is doing (by the way, what's his name?).
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Fox
Newborn Pup
Mew...I mean...WOOF!!
Posts: 13
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Post by Fox on Jun 26, 2009 12:17:11 GMT -5
Ah ok. I see what you're saying here. And why wouldn't I hear you out? You're a pro and I need more advice, its the sensible and polite thing to do. I may be impatience but not all my manners have fled my mind ;D ;D
Breed of Dog: Collgiedor - Collie/Corgi/Lab. All quite soft mouthed and all working dogs.
But sure, I'll pop him down to the vet and see what comes up. And his past was nasty. I only know a few things but he was beaten and thrown down stairs as a puppy and lord knows what else so I can see why the hitting doesn't help him and I'll stop and try and find other methods.
Lol at the dog training thing. No, I don't want to go into it professionally. Wouldn't have the patience or right mindset. If i told you what I really want to do, you'd laugh...so I shan't tell ya ;D
And the dogs name. He's the same one I was bragging about (the karma in this is just funny), it's Kellev.
But thank you for your insight and hopefully I can put it to good use. And I think he is one of those naturally soft dogs. I'll see where I get with him. Thank you again
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Post by DogGoneGood on Jun 26, 2009 14:02:07 GMT -5
You'd be surprised at how many people I get telling me ass-backwards train of thought regarding dogs, when I give them advice they fly off the handle and act like they've been training for 30+ years. I'm very new in my career, but I think I've got a lot to offer people, and I can't even imagine where I'll be at in 10+ years, I'm hoping I can only improve from here Poor pup Yes, a soft hand is DEFINITELY needed with him. I couldn't see it any other way. Ah, I wouldn't laugh at you for telling me what you want to do in life. A LOT of people laughed at me for wanting to be a dog trainer. Even my mom took a long time to "come to terms" with it When I was younger, I had a lot of anger and angst against the world. Little to no patience. Everything that comes with being a teenager basically (keep in mind, I'm only 21, so it really wasn't even that long ago!). It was dogs that taught me patience and understanding. I wouldn't be as level-headed as I am today if it wasn't for them Please keep me updated on how things work out with Kellev, I'd love to know.
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Fox
Newborn Pup
Mew...I mean...WOOF!!
Posts: 13
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Post by Fox on Jun 28, 2009 10:46:12 GMT -5
He's just done it again, and I was giving him treats and then I called him to have a drink and he disobeyed me and sloped of under the table. Keeping in mind what you said I went after him but slowly this time and I reached under the table (that's where he was) and I went to reach for his collar and he looked at me and peed quite blatently.
I recoiled before I went ape-shizz but then just made him go outside and made him sit there whilst i cleaned up and then put him on his bed in my room and closed the door. This has all taken place basically a few minutes before I wrote this.
Sorry, freind, but I think its pure rebellion. He showed no submissive signs and the disobedience tells me he's being dominant. I just don't know anymore. I won't hit him cause I just...won't and shouting does nothing (haven't tries it yet though).
Help, please?
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Post by DogGoneGood on Jun 28, 2009 11:57:53 GMT -5
Okay, reaching for him was what did it. I will do you a favor and try to get a video done up today of how to approach a scared dog. Of course my dogs aren't the best actors in this field, so you'll have to use your imagination on that part Pretty much the same rules apply to a scared, submisive dog as what do apply to a strange dog you've never met before and appears unsure of you. Example: the other day at work this small collie cross dog showed up outside the store. I recognized the dog as Mr. Pluenis' dog (he works in the adult ed center in the building my work is in). I looked around and didn't see Mr Pluenis, though he's usually not far behind. This dog is what is refered to as a "soft" dog (or submissive). She kept going out in the parking lot and even onto the road so I didn't want to see her get hit by a car. So I called her over with my whistle that no herding breed can ignore and she perked her ears up and looked at me. I crouched down and reached my hand up (backwards with palm up, I will explain this in the video) and told her to come to me in a very calm, friendly tone. The dog was very unsure but eventually trotted over and crawled on her belly to me and sniffed my hand. I reached under her chin and scratched it lightly and then pulled away. A terrified dog will run at this point, but a scared dog who wants the company will come forward. She came forward. If I had called to her in my normal tone, not crouched down to her level, or not reached out in the manner I did, she would have become scared and ran away. I have no doubt about this. Because I handled her calmly and softly she came to me with interest and learned to trust me when I pet her. (oh, if you're curious as to what happened to her, I went upstairs to find the adult ed center was closed so brought her back out to the front of the building and I saw Pluenis across the road, he called her and they were reuinted. He said he "lost her on the walk"). Reaching for a dogs collar (aka, around there HEAD!) is a very threatening act to a dog. You're not trying to teach him obedience at this point. You're trying to teach him to TRUST you. When Coal was a pup I made the mistake of grabbing him by the collar to bring him back inside or to bring him to whatever he did to punish him. It only took a few months of this and he began flipping over onto his back when I reached for him and nipping at my hands and arms if I got CLOSE to his neck. It took a HECK of a lot longer to undo my brainless damage than it did to create it. Instead of reaching for his neck I had to calmly get him to come TO ME instead of the other way around. And then give him pets and calmly attach the leash to his collar instead of dragging him back to the house by the collar, there was now a leash which created space between us which taught him I wasn't going to hurt him. Everyone makes mistakes. Even the best trainers in the world have made mistakes (and still are making them without yet realizing it). I will try to get that video done for you today, as I think it would be a LOT easier for both of us if I just show you rather than try to explain it.
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Post by DogGoneGood on Jun 29, 2009 15:44:56 GMT -5
Sorry I didn't get a video done, I can't seem to find our video camera.
But I just wanted to add, you should check out the post on Nothing in Life is Free (see side menu under "Internal Links"). I forgot about it because NILIF is suggested more often for dominant dogs, but it works for submissive dogs too. Solidifies their place in the family ("pack") and therefore makes them more confident. It's worth a shot anyway, and in the very least is a good way to give the dog manners too.
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Post by DogGoneGood on Jul 4, 2009 1:49:44 GMT -5
Here you go... made the video... it's not the best explination as it'd probably be easier to demonstrate with an actual submissive dog lol plus it was after work and I had to chase the neighbors dog out of the yard a couple of times so I was trying really hard not to be hot headed I hope it helps in showing how to approach a timid dog though...
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Fox
Newborn Pup
Mew...I mean...WOOF!!
Posts: 13
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Post by Fox on Jul 8, 2009 10:00:33 GMT -5
"You are a cowering, submissive dog...." Lol, that made me actually laugh out loud. Coal was just like: "Yes, mummy, of course I am..."
But seriously, thank you for the video. I haven't had much contact with the dog for a few days now because its been raining and I've been taking time out with my Staffie, Juniour, who completely different from Kellev lol.
But thank you so much!
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Post by DogGoneGood on Jul 8, 2009 12:22:19 GMT -5
You're very welcome. I enjoy making videos, it's just a matter of finding the time to do it (and making sure I HAVE the camera, as it's not actually mine so I don't always know where it is). I love how my cat Taz is in the background cleaning her butt How classy is that? Last video I did she's in the corner eating a mouse too
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Fox
Newborn Pup
Mew...I mean...WOOF!!
Posts: 13
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Post by Fox on Jul 24, 2009 10:00:20 GMT -5
Hey there,
thanks for all the help, but its not gone exactly to plan. He's disobeyed me quite blatantly and still peeing. Even when I offer him food. I put a bowl down for him (winalot dog food) and he didn't eat it but ran off into the sitting room where he hid and disobeyed me. That for one is something to get irritated about.
When i went to fetch him from the sitting room, he didn't wee until i told him in a cheerful voice to "wait" and then "sit" and he just did it then. I swear down, if rebellious peeing was invented, he would have been the one to invent it.
A few moments ago, he ran back off to the sitting room, when his bed is in my room and every time i turn my back he'll run off. So i half lost my patience with him and got him by the collar and led him outside. He didn't pee then either, even when i grabbed him he didn't do anything.
Weird eh? Any ideas?
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Post by DogGoneGood on Jul 24, 2009 20:40:02 GMT -5
I would tether him. Take a reguarl 5-6 foot leash and tie it to your belt/belt loop and clip the other end to him. Same simple basic rules for when you bring a new puppy into your house; he doesn't leave your sight this way. Enforce NILIF (see left hand menu). Feed him by HAND. Not out of the bowl. This seems to be where you're having problems. Just sit on the floor (maybe in front of the TV or something) and offer him food out of your hand from the food bowl. If he doesn't take it out of your hand, put the food up for 10 - 20 minutes and try again (you can even wait until the next feeding time. Trust me, he's a dog, he won't let himself starve). Read these articles (you'll need Adobe to view them): The Groundwork to Establishing Pack Structure with Adult DogsThe Theory of Motivation in Dog Training DON'T expect progress over night.
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